Update: Jul 1st- --to Jun 30th post--
Dragon XL contract with NASA delayed
There's a contract out there, or there was, that consisted of using the Dragon capsule to supply the future Gateway outpost for the Artemis program. It looks like it could be used for other things, and SpaceX was interested as well as NASA. However, as of this writing, it looks like it is in limbo. This link is to a news item that is two years old. The current status is unknown as of this writing.
As written in this thread, it would seem to be useful to take a smaller ship back from the surface, if the only need is to get the crew back onboard the Gateway. So, here's a use for the Dragon XL besides to supply the Gateway. It could also supply the lunar surface as well. Trouble is, the current configuration only allows for maybe 11k to 12k pounds. You'll need that much or more to get to the surface.
However, if the Dragon XL is stowed onboard the Starship, it could deliver a return module so that the crew can get back home. The return module would be the Dragon XL itself. Moreover, it might be integrated into the Starship lunar lander so that it goes down to the surface, and can return with just the Dragon XL with crew onboard.
The main idea here is to maximize on their capabilities. The Dragon XL is all that would be needed to get back to the Gateway, so why use the entire ship? A Starship lunar lander can deliver cargo, so why not make the Dragon XL capable of doing that too? If the entire Starship isn't coming back, there could be more cargo sent to the lunar surface. Besides, the Starship might even be retrievable in its own right, as mentioned in the earlier part of the thread. In short, use the Starship for big cargo, and the Dragon XL for smaller stuff.
It would also make the spacecraft reusable so that this aspect of the program can be maximized as well. The Dragon XL program mentioned in the link is only good for one mission, and the idea is to dispose of it along with the station's trash. This could be a better solution, in my opinion.
June 30th post continues below:
Update of post of 6-29-23:
It looks like the plan is to use the lunar water sources in order to make fuel for the spacecraft. Perhaps it would be better if the water sources were not used that way.
Actually, it may be best to refuel the lander from orbit. It could use the hydrogen-oxygen mix, or it could use another mix, which would be the same kind of fuel that the Apollo landers used. Such a mix as that would be simpler and safer. If the rocket fails, then it cannot get off the moon.
Consequently, it may be better to use a SpaceX derived vehicle from the Starship, as mentioned earlier on this blog. SuperDracos were studied as a fuel for a Mars lander during the Red Dragon proposal. Why not revive that, and use a variant of a Dragon for landing on the moon?
NASA may not go for that though. SpaceX may not go for it either. But the current deals have got a few flaws that need to be worked out. A hydrogen fueled lander is too complex. The Starship is too big. Lunar water is too scarce to be used for fuel. A permanent base will need plenty of water, so why not use the lunar water to sustain life on the moon, as opposed to making fuel with it?
the original post follows:
This video gave me an idea. It so happens that the proposed lunar lander from Blue Origin is about 1/3 the size of the lunar lander from SpaceX. Both have contracts with NASA to land on the moon. It's clear than NASA wants a continuing presence on the moon, so there has to be a way to get back and forth. This idea might be an alternative way of doing that.
In that vein, the Blue Origin can make sense. However, it cannot take as much cargo back and forth. The SpaceX lander can take much more. The SpaceX system can carry the Blue Origin lander in a modified Starship lander. That's the idea. It could be feasible to put fairing around the Blue Origin lander, and take off from the Earth on the Starship rocket system. The top part of the system would have the lander, and the bottom part could be used to land cargo or crew ( but not simulataneously on one rocket). Starship isn't planning to land the vehicle on Earth again, so it doesn't have to be aerodynamic once it leaves the atmosphere.
The problem with using the Starship for lunar missions is its immense size. Such size requires much more fuel. A small lander would need much less fuel to land on the lunar surface and to return back to orbit. The reason for this is the much reduced mass.
I'm seeing a mass of 45 tons for the Blue Origin ship. That would have to be the wet mass. Just a ballpark guess on the dry mass would be about 1/3 of that, which would be about 15 tons. In contrast, the Apollo lunar lander came in at about 5 tons dry mass. It would be a more capable lander.
How would it work? Since it would separate from the Starship, then you'd only have to get it to the Gateway. From there, separate the two, and the Blue Origin ship would descend to the surface, and after finishing its mission, return to the Gateway. The Starship would remain at the Gateway. Perhaps it could be refueled and sent back to Earth orbit for another lunar mission. It could be used for transporting cargo for the Gateway and to the lunar surface.
Starship is uniquely positioned to deliver a lot of cargo, so it could resupply both ships with fuel and supplies. This would make it a fully reusable platform for a permanent presense on the moon, and the Gateway too.
Here's the video where I got the idea...
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