Saturday, November 16, 2013

The Lightbringer Has Come Not To Bring Light, But Chaos and Darkness

Ace of Spades

...creating chaos tended to put him in the central position of power on a set, because everyone would have to come to him to find out how to fix the problems.. that he himself had caused.

And by doing so, he created power for himself.
Nooooooooooooooooo!


House Democrats: Obamacare is working, no apology needed

WashingtonExaminer.com

Update:

Cue up the Bagdad Bob videos.


Next Big Future: Koreans say graphene supercapacitors are ready for...

Next Big Future: Koreans say graphene supercapacitors are ready for...: Conventional batteries take so long to charge that they cannot efficiently store braking energy. But now graphene supercapacitors that stor...

comment:


Looking through the comments section, it appears that supercapacitors won't replace batteries just yet.


Finishing up Gingrich's new book

Breakout

I cannot whole-heartedly endorse this book.  Even though it contains great stuff that I am drawn to like a moth to a flame.  But the flame consumes the moth, and that is not so good for the moth, yet the flame is enhanced.  I really hate to be negative about this book.  But I must.

Gingrich is a politician.  They in general, and he in particular are like that flame, we are like the moths.  The flame that can incite millions to follow them.  Yet the millions who flock to them are going to be consumed while the flame gets bigger.  A politician incites people against other people in order to defeat them.  Politicians generally do not solve problems, except for one:  how to acquire and keep power over the people.  They are masters at defeating one group of people at the expense of another.  In the end, all are consumed by that flame.

Getting to specifics, his approval of self-driving cars worries me.  I drive for a living.  Such an invention leaves me without a job.  His rather glib ideas on getting retrained for a new job don't reassure me.  I didn't choose driving as a career.  I had other ambitions which didn't pan out.  Thus, driving for a living became my safety net.  What happens when the safety net is removed?  It is hard for me to imagine what my life would have been like if I didn't have this to fall back position to rely upon when my plans didn't work out.  If Gingrich had his way, my safety net would be pulled out from under me.  This doesn't reassure me at all.

Besides that, he uses a rather emotionally charged "prison guard- prisoner" psychological structure to manipulate the reader emotionally.  The emotions are like the flame.  I know because that is what I felt when I read this stuff.  I hated the guards.  Don't you just hate the guards?  It is quite natural to resent those who inhibit your progress.  Little did I suspect that I was a guard too, because I don't want one of these ideas---self driving cars--- to succeed.  That's how you get consumed.  You become what you hate.

I don't consider myself to be a Luddite.  Seriously, do we really a society that depends so much upon machines?  What happens if the machines are so sophisticated that we no longer need people?  This is not so far-fetched if cars can drive themselves.  The activity of driving is not a trivial exercise.  Only people can drive.  Monkeys cannot drive a car.  What kind of world would it be if it were only fit for robots and their owners?


Friday, November 15, 2013

[Thursday night] White House threatens veto of Upton bill

Free Republic

Despite the administration’s veto threat, many Democrats could vote for the legislation, seeking political cover for the midterm elections. Democratic leaders have not yet said whether they’ll whip against the legislation.

Comment:

Just a lot more phony posturing.  Democrats will vote for it because they can claim to be for something that corrects a problem they caused themselves.  It gives them political cover even though it won't become law, as Obama will veto it.  Instead, Obama claims to do the same thing through an executive order which changes the law, a power he does not have.

 Will enough people be fooled by this to enable Obama to win?

Does a wild bear poop in the woods?  Defund ObamaCare now.


The GOP needs Grants, not McClellans

This past week was Veteran's Day.  There was something in the news that Obama didn't attend the 150th anniversary of the Gettysburg Address.  You'd think Obama would be proud to be there, since he claims to admire Lincoln so much.  And Lincoln freed the slaves.  Why wasn't Obama there?   The Gettysburg Address was given in honor of the war dead in the Battle at Gettysburg, which was considered a decisive battle in the Civil War.

About the same time, General Grant was winning another decisive battle at Vicksburg.  But there were those who didn't like Grant's success and wanted Lincoln to relieve him.  But Lincoln insisted on keeping him.  Lincoln liked Grant because he would fight.  He didn't like another general, McClellan, because he often seemed to find excuses not to fight.  The objection to Grant was his drinking.  But that wasn't relevant to winning the war.  What was relevant to Lincoln was the ability to win.  Lincoln couldn't spare this man, he said, because "he fights".  Of McClellan, Lincoln said something quite different---"If he can't fight himself, he excels in making others ready to fight."  It was Lincoln's way of saying that McClellan wouldn't fight.

When I think of John McCain, I think of McClellan.  When I think of Ted Cruz, I think of Grant.  We need a Grant, not a McClellan.  McCain and those of his ilk won't fight.  Cruz will.  You can't win if you won't fight.  The GOP is playing not to lose.  That won't work.  It didn't work for McClellan.   It didn't work for Romney in this last election.  It won't work now.

This president isn't afraid to use power---even power he doesn't legally have.  The GOP is afraid to use power that it DOES have.  Who do you think will win this fight over ObamaCare?  If ObamaCare was important, you'd think the GOP would be willing to fight over it.  Obama doesn't seem to shy away from that fight, even though he did shy away from attending the 150th anniversary of the Gettysburg Address.  The victory at Gettysburg saved the Union.  What are the GOP's intentions here?

The trouble with the GOP approach to ObamaCare

It's a year out from the next election.  So there's plenty of time for the Democrats to do damage control.

If you play it for politics the way the GOP is doing now, you won't win.  The Democrats can beat you at that game.

The GOP should have kept to the plan to defund Obamacare.  Then they may have succeeded in that strategy because that put them in a real game in which they had a real chance to win.  Since they decided not to do that, they probably won't succeed because they will get beat at a game that the Democrats play better than they do---after all, they own the bully pulpit.  Besides, the Democrats have time to adjust to the political realities that exist now.  Polls can be managed now.  An election can't be managed until it is time for it to happen.  Citing the polls as a way to power is a futile move because they aced themselves out of the power to win the game.

Besides, it's a power that they've already got.  The excuse for doing nothing is that they need more power.  That's just an excuse for their failure.  The Constitution enpowers the House to withhold funds if it collectively chooses to do so.  The House was well within its constitutional authority to defund ObamaCare.  Now, after ceding that authority to Obama, Obama is abusing it.  He just changed the ObamaCare law, so as to relieve pressure upon his party, in which he doesn't have the Constitutional authority to do.  The GOP will do nothing in response.  They will recycle the same old excuse that they need more power to do anything about this, which is false.  As I have mentioned, they have that power already.  They can defund ObamaCare.

So, Obama and the Democrats will do damage control and the GOP will make excuses and do nothing.  The result may as well have been the same as the Democrats being in charge.  People will begin to wonder what good the GOP actually is, and decide not to go to the polls.  What point would there be if you give the GOP the power, and they refuse to use it?  They are demoralizing the people that they need for success.  They are going to fail.

Update:

We know it will fail because that is what Romney did.  He sat on what he believed was a lead.  He played "prevent defense", by not trying to win because he feared that it would damage his phony lead in the polls.

Romney went "bean bag" and lost the election.  The bean bag route is a loser.  We have already seen that.


Thursday, November 14, 2013

Lithium air batteries advance

http://www.sciencerecorder.com/news/scientists-use-viruses-to-improve-the-efficiency-of-lithium-ion-batteries/

Use a virus that increases surface area of nanowires.

Can increase power density two or three times.

Best numbers since 1986

http://m.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/improving-us-oil-production-reaches-milestone-in-october-agency-says/2013/11/13/dd01db86-4c97-11e3-9890-a1e0997fb0c0_story.html

Obama wants to take credit.  He's doing this while trying to destroy fossil fuels.

Gingrich Book Predicts Major 'Breakout' for US Economy

Newsmax

Comment:

I can see it happening, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.  I may buy the book and see what Newt has to say on the subject.  Time is short, as always.  Can't check into it now cause it's time to get ready for the salt mine.

Update:

I bought Gingrich's book and I am reading it now---Friday, 11/15/13.


Meltdown: Reid Summons Senate Democrats For Crisis Meeting on Obamacare

Ace of Spades

Comment:

Interesting quote in there about the Wilson Presidency.  I've tended in recent years to be suspicious about how the Great Depression happened and the response to it.  It reminds me of the stuff we have been going through for the last few years with this "Great Recession".

By the way, I know the Great Depression began in the Hoover years, not the Wilson years.  No, the point is how forceful the left is in imposing their will.  They may have made the Great Depression happen is my point.  Then they blame the GOP for it, and gain political power that way.


Grow Spirulina at Home: Kickstarter Video

From description:

Published on Jul 19, 2013 Go to here for more details...

Comment:


Their website says that they will start shipping orders in mid-November, or about right now.  The website isn't set up yet for orders, so you can subscribe to their newsletter in order to get their latest news.  I haven't done this, myself.  Proceed at your own risk.

Update:

I include the link to the google search here, and a link to another site that can get you started on your own algae farm.





Wednesday, November 13, 2013

Closing the carbon loop

This is probably an incomplete thought, but so be it.  Time is limited.

As per last post, you could close the carbon loop by growing Algenol's ethanol producing algae.  Since Algenol's algae produces water, that could be used to grow a food like spirulina.  The spirulina can supply the ethanol producing algae with carbon dioxide.  How?  The harvested  spirulina  can be pyrolyzed and made into methanol and biochar.  The methanol is then reformed into hydrogen and carbon dioxide.  The hydrogen can be combined with the oxygen in the air to produce more water and electricity.  The carbon dioxide can go back into the Algenol mixture to make more ethanol.  Sunlight provides the energy to run the entire show.

Let's see:  input seawater--- outputs
  1. fresh water from two different sources
  2. ethanol
  3. biochar
  4. electricity
  5. surplus spirulina is a food source, so you've got that going for you too.
All of which are valuable and can be sold for profit.  The biochar can be a carbon sink.  There doesn't appear to be any waste.  The environment is left better than what is was before the products were produced.  What else can produce a product that improves the environment and creates a profit?


(Repost) The Mighty Mississippi to Run Dry?

Note:

It seems appropriate to include this "blast from the past".  What do you do when the your source of wealth runs dry?  Life becomes a matter of survival.  You have to be able to live off the land.

With respect to growing algae, chickens, ducks, and goats, I'd say you could probably do that in the driest desert on Earth---that would be the Atacama Desert in Chile.  If Algenol produced the water from its ethanol producing algae, you can take it from there and grow everything else.  Algenol claims to be able to take seawater and make fresh water out of it.  It so happens that the Atacama desert is next to the Pacific Ocean.

So, if the Mississippi runs dry, you can still survive.  There is a way.

But not if you trust in money.  The country is said to be divided between the cities and the countryside.  Who do you think will make it when things fall apart?


So, here's the post---




 From theTrumpet.com


What is the single greatest reason America is so wealthy? According to the analysts at Stratfor, it is because of a river.

What is wealth?  It is a term that is not precisely defined.  Some may say it is the amount of money that you have stashed away in your bank account.  But if a catastrophe occurred, that money wouldn't mean much to you.  You can't eat it.  You can't build a house out of it.  It can't keep you warm in winter and cool in summer.  It is merely a medium of exchange.

Another way to define wealth is to say that it is a store of knowledge.  Without knowledge, where would you be?  Wealth has to begin with knowledge, I would think.

In my post about machines, I wondered if we have become too dependent upon them.  An individual's knowledge should include a basic ability to stay alive.  If one is too dependent upon machines, one's own life is hostage to the machine.  That could be said to be another form of poverty.

I'm all for raising the level of civilization.  But fundamental things should not be forgotten.

Just before my father died, he liked to talk about living off the land.  He knew how.  He was born and raised in the country.  But being a city boy all my life, I only know about living off the land- not actually doing it.  I wonder if all my knowledge gained from books in school is worth nearly as much as being able to survive off the land, as the old man said.

Colonizing space is just another way to survive.  But living off the land is where is all began.  Wealth cannot even have a meaning if you can't use it for survival.  You have to eat and have shelter and so forth.  You shouldn't die just because there's a drought.  Or any other force of nature, like an asteroid strike. You need to be able to survive, or your wealth means nothing.

A commenter on Free Republic included a link to the following video. I think it is appropriate to the post, so I'll include it here.  It's Hank Williams' A Country Boy Can Survive.



Update:

I guess the bottom line is this: if it can't keep you alive, it isn't worth much.  If you were to choose between alternatives, then the longer something can keep you alive, the more it is worth.

Wealth then is about value and how to properly evaluate it.

To forget useful skills do not make you richer, but poorer. To know how to make a fire could be a life saver. The electricity could be out. No matches could be available. No cigarette lighters to be found. You need a fire, what do you do if you don't know how? You may die.

Another thing to remember is that we almost allowed the knowledge of molten salt reactors to be forgotten.  Not good.  We may desperately need that energy some day.

Also, those in high places who think they are superior may be forgetting what the true value of religion is.  There was a reason for it to exist for all that time, mainly because it helped keep people alive.


Politics in this country is very confused nowadays

It struck me that Ted Cruz on Leno got a good amount of applause for criticizing ObamaCare.  Yet, it was supposed to be a big mistake to try to defund ObamaCare.

Can anyone make any sense out of that?

ObamaCare has never been popular, yet people voted the Democrats back in.  Can anybody explain that for me?  I don't get it.

Romney promised to end ObamaCare and to create jobs.  These issues are the ones that the polls say should be popular.  Yet Romney lost the election.  Can anybody explain that for me?

People voted for Obama because he promised to bring the country together.  But the country is more divided than ever, or so the polls indicate.  Despite the failure of Obama to live up to his promises, and the many other promises that he made, he got re-elected anyway.  How did that happen?

I don't get it.  Yet, I don't think I am confused.  I think everybody else is confused.  But I am in the minority.


Follow up on Energaia's spirulina farm

The company is located in Bangkok, Thailand.

It intrigued me because of how much spirulina they can make on a small amount of space.  From 80 kg a week, it was claimed.

Well, let's say you can equal that production.  What could you do with it.  One thing is to make fuel.  However, the fuel I was thinking of was methanol.  It is not very lucrative to get into that business, though.  For methanol will sell for about $2.00 a gallon, and the amount you could make would be 14 gallons, then that figures out to be a small amount of money.

Funny, that the article says spirulina is expensive.  There's a website that I saw, nuts.com, that sells spirulina for $15.00 pound.  That appears much more lucrative than making fuel and selling it.  For 80 kg of the stuff could retail for $2640.  Not bad for a week's worth of work.  You'd have to find customers, of course.

Spirulina is probably considered to be exotic in this country.  Doubtful that the mass population would ever take to it.  It's selling point is as a health food.  It would be added to a normal diet as a supplement.  Or it can be mixed up in a smoothie.

I noticed in the article that it is also used as a cosmetic.  Those are lucrative businesses, too.

The energy business is not a good place to look for making money!




Tuesday, November 12, 2013

More thoughts on the Urbee 2

Slow day today at work, so there was time to think about this.

It's hard for me to say at this point, because I haven't done all possible calculations, but it appears that the Urbee may be a little underpowered.  The ultracapacitor may add more power in short bursts than the 16 hp that the article I linked to yesterday.  In order to get 0-60 mph in 12 seconds ( an arbitrary number that I just pulled out of a hat ), you'd probably want about 32 kw of power for that mass, or about twice the power for the battery/diesel combo.

Now, there has to be a disclaimer here, since I don't do this for a living.  Okay, that 32 kw may not be gospel, ok?

I considered if there may be an advantage to using fuel cells.  It probably won't be worth it in terms of saving weight.  At 1200 lbs, the Urbee is already too light to be considered an automobile.  There may be ways to reduce the weight further, like using fuel cells and maybe some carbon fiber all over the place, but it may not be worth it really.

I thought I'd show my work to consider whether a 300 mpg claim can be made.  In the chart below, it can be seen, or I hope it can be seen, that the diesel engine will have to be as efficient as the battery in order to get a little over 200 mpg equivalent.  That is probably not likely.

It is also possible that I'm full of it because I made a mistake somewhere.  Like I said, I don't do this for a living.


Energy calculations for the Urbee 2 concept car



Writing ideas are hard to come by

Yes, it getting to be a broken record.  I've written about it numerous times.  In order to get traffic, you have to put up content, but that is hard to do every single day.

It's been getting harder lately.

In response to that, I want to increase quality.  Yeah, in the search for content, I could put up a lot of junk.  But I don't want to put up junk.  I want good stuff here.  But getting good stuff is hard and takes time and effort.  In the meantime, I have to work my day job and pay my bills.  There's just not that much time.

I put up the link to the Zero Hedge article not only because of the fact that I need content, but it seems rather to the point of what people should be paying attention to right now.  Or, if nobody is interested, they should be.  Or, if they are not interested,  I sure the hell am.

What scares the hell out of me is the lying to the public.  The disinformation is deafening.  There's just no damned way that the recent jobs report should be seen as an improving situation.  No damned way.  To report it otherwise is bad enough, but to let the politicians skate on such issues as illegal immigration and the mad dash to robotize every damned thing is even more scary.  There's nobody in the media that is truly a friend to the working man.  They are covering up for the governing class which doesn't give a damn about the people in this country anymore.  The thing that scares me the most is the failure to rise up against this.  People just seem to be too damned apathetic and trusting of these people in Washington and their media sychophants.

So, if you are wondering why I am posting about raising chickens, ducks, and goats, there it is.  There is a trend towards making the people obsolete and unnecessary.  There is a trend towards importing foreigners into our country.  There is a trend to completely overwhelming native born Americans who just want to work and take care of themselves and their families.  There is a drive to marginalize those who care about this country and its heritage.  It is a heritage of self-reliance above all.  Of being able to fend for yourself by the dint of your own effort and creativity.  It is reducing everyone down to the level of a government dependent and ultimately a government slave.  If you can't take care of yourself, you may as well be a slave.

And here I am struggling to meet that challenge and sometimes it feels awfully damned lonely out here.  Well, if all I can do is raise chickens, ducks, and goats, then that's the way it will be.  I just wonder what all those people out there are thinking about who are having a hard time making ends meet.  Even people who are relatively well-off, what are they thinking when technology is getting to the point where it may eliminate their job.  Maybe they don't believe that will happen.  But technology is improving to the point where any job can be replaced by a robot.   If that happens, what will you do?  Get government assistance?  Well, the government is not going to be my source if I can help it.

If there's anything that this blog is about is to stand up, stand tall, and think for yourself.  Dammit.  Stop trusting everything you are told.  Use that critical thinking that you were supposedly taught in our schools.  If you don't know how, learn.  Dammit.  Stop being a passive nonentity.


What the media won't tell you about jobs



10 Uncomfortable Truths About The Growing Unemployment Crisis In America


Monday, November 11, 2013

Gizmag article about Urbee 2

http://www.gizmag.com/urbee-2-transcontinental-us-10-gal/29716/
It gets 5.26 miles per kilowatt hour for the batteries.  Estimated 40 mile range for 7.6 kWh batteries.
IC engine can run on diesel or ethanol.
No EPA mileage rating.  The 300 miles on a gallon isn't verified.
Author says 50k price point may be optimistic.

Update:

I've run some numbers on the power requirements and so forth.  300 miles per gallon seems far-fetched.  There's just so many joules in a gallon of diesel fuel.  Measuring the rate in which it uses up the kilowatt hours in the battery, it doesn't appear likely that it can get 300 miles on a gallon.  They are going to have to fudge this a bit, but how would they do it?  Drive slowly and stop often for recharges!

Update:

I may have made some errors in my calcs.  I am skeptical about the 300 mpg figure, that's all.  Not trying to discredit the work.


I was looking for this, and here it is

What if you put together two different strains of algae in order to make the two different things you need for diesel?

Here's what I was looking for, a way to grow algal oil.   Summarizing the video:  Juergen Polle, Brooklyn College, is researching algal oil as a drop-in replacement for current fuels.  Paul Falkowski at Rutgers Energy Institute, is also researching algae.  Sapphire Energy, in San Diego, seems to have a process developed to make the algal oil.  Falkowski says all algae needs is money.

If you were to combine that with the other strain to make methanol--- which strain would be spirulina --- that would comprise the two major components for biosdiesel.

Everybody, it seems, wants to go big, but what if you just had a lot of urban homesteaders who made a little for themselves and their neighbors?



Sunday, November 10, 2013

Bye-Bye, Privacy

Weekly Standard  via Behind the Black

On his blog, professional software tester Ben Simo began tinkering with HealthCare.gov shortly after it launched and uncovered security holes almost immediately.

Uh, oh.  Why should anybody use the Obamacare site now?  It is a disaster waiting to happen.  The government has foisted this upon its citizens deserves to run out of town on a rail.

Next Big Future: Asteroids can be moved into lunar orbits and used ...

Next Big Future: Asteroids can be moved into lunar orbits and used ...: Retrograde orbits around the moon are stable and can be used as places park redirected near earth asteroids. Possible Selenocentric Distan...

An alternative to placing asteroids at the Lagrange points.

Jim Kor hopes to run Urbee vehicle on ethanol

That would be a nice fit for Algenol's ethanol project.


Algenol to build in Florida after all


Posted: Oct 29, 2013 3:10 PM Updated: Oct 29, 2013 5:16 PM

ABC-7.com WZVN News for Fort Myers, Cape Coral

Algenol Cancels Plans for $500 Million Algae-to-Ethanol Facility

luxresearchinc

We are skeptical of Algenol’s ability to raise the necessary capital to move forward with its first production facility. In this space, a company blaming the government is an all-too-common red flag, indicating a doomed company looking to push blame away from themselves, and clients should view such proclamations with caution. 

Puts that last post into some perspective.

Intro to Algenol

Companies seem to disappear.  I was going to put up some videos that were several years old, but those companies no longer exist.  It's a tough world out there.

But this company is still out there kicking.  I can put this up for now and not be out of date.

Algenol has a series of videos about using algae to make drop in fuels.  You can get access to them from their Youtube site.

My contribution to this is to add a little commentary to each.  The first one discusses how "Big Oil" kills ideas.  Could that be why this never seems to pan out?  It sure looks good on the surface.  Probing deeper, can we find a show-stopper?  You won't find that here.  Just a finger pointing exercise.  Nevertheless, they may have a point.

The process uses salt water and produces fresh water.  Now that's interesting.

Update:

Paul Woods is the CEO of Algenol.






How Does Algenol Do It

This process looks a lot like the one I was going to write about.  Big Oil didn't kill it off, the idea is still out there.  I saw this several years ago for the first time.  He talks like he has it perfected.  Now, it is time to scale it up.





Algenol's Environmental Benefits

This guy talks big.  He finishes the video by saying that this technology is about to spread across America.






Myths What is true and what is not

It won't hurt your engine.  It can be made to get more miles per gallon than gas.  Every gallon of ethanol produces 3 gallons of fresh water, he says.  Gives energy and fresh water.  Ethanol can be transported by pipeline because it already is today.






How Algenol Complements Traditional Oil and Gas

As countries move out of poverty, there is going to be a need for more oil.  This technology is not likely to replace fossil fuels.







How Does Algenol Address Safety Concerns

Is not invasive.   Don't persist in the wild.    If it goes into soil, it will not last a week, he says.  Meant to be "babied", can't compete in the wild.  Does not produce toxins.   








Algenol In a Political World

Have to deal with rules and regulations.  Won't be built unless the regulations will allow it.  He says the politicians will have to made aware that people want this.  Need community involvement.  Like on Facebook and so forth.  Tell friends.  Write your Congress person.






Algenol Tour Fall 2013


Published on Oct 24, 2013

Algenol is a global, industrial biotechnology company that produces ethanol and other biofuels from algae. Take a video tour of our production facility here in Ft. Myers, Florida!


R&D facilities.  Plastic bags that maximize the growth of algae.  Peak ethanol production in just 4 days.  Just one PC computer runs the farm.





Edible algae coming to a rooftop near you

Businesworld online and VOA

“If you compare it to meat it will take six months to grow a kilogram of beef, but this we can grow in a week.”
Maybe you can feed it to ducks, chickens, and goats, like I researched yesterday.  Chickens will definitely eat it.  Ducks too, most likely.  I don't know about goats, but goats are said to eat anything.

What about grasshoppers since grasshoppers eat anything?  Grasshoppers!  Yeah, they eat grasshoppers in Mexico.  Not that I would want to eat grasshoppers, but the chickens might eat them.  Plus the ducks.

Spirulina is quite prolific:

Energaia, after years of research and development utilizing four staff micro-biologists, is producing 80 to 100 kilograms of spirulina weekly utilizing 130 square meters on the Novotel's flat roof.
With a yield of about 12 lbs per gallon, 80 kilograms of this stuff can make  14 gallons of biofuel.  I'd say that would be methanol, not biodiesel itself.  If you had 70 gallons of waste oil, you could make maybe that much in biodiesel from it each week.

By the way 130 square meters is 3.2% of an acre.  Not much area would be required.